Apache Pilot Joe Wankelman's Miracle life flip

God "shows off" with powerful miracles in the lives and stories of his people.  And that is what the Amazing Greats podcast does;  shares those stories.

Joe Wankelman's story is an inspiring showcase of God's goodness.  From a childhood of drama with his mother pretty much disappearing and his dad self focused, he was mostly raised by a caring grandmother.  Joe didn't read until he was in 7th grade...graduated with a 1.9 GPA and was called "stupid" by many throughout his years growing up and even labeled himself with that.

Listen right here, right now!

Watch right here, right now!

This story is a modern day showcase of what the Bible says:  In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul quotes Jesus who said, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 

Wankelman's early challenges were God's opportunity to demonstrate his miracle power. Joe became one of the few highly skilled pilots of one of the worlds most sophisticated aircraft, the Apache helicopter, and flew multiple heroic missions in combat during the "war on terror" after 9/11,  hitting precision targets and saving many American soldier's  lives on the ground.   As he describes it, he and the Apache became a unique team of man and machine.  He is truly an American hero.   Make sure to listen to this podcast all the way to the end, because the story just gets better and better.  

You've heard me mention the name of my mentor, George Toles, many times in several episodes of AMAZING GREATS, and today you'll get an even greater glimpse of George's impact in 2018 as part of Joe Wankelman's story.  

You can reach out to Joe if you are thinking about a forming a small group of men, for his input and advice: joewankelman@gmail.com

JOE WANKELMAN AT A GLANCE

U.S. Army Apache Helicopter Pilot • Combat Veteran • Christian • Advocate for Hope and Men's Community

Topics

Christian faith • Apache helicopters • Military service • Combat • Trauma • Identity • Mental health • Healing • Redemption • Men's community

His Faith Journey

Difficult childhood → Early introduction to Christ → Struggling with identity → Military success → Combat and trauma → Loss of identity → Rock bottom → Scripture and mentors → Surrendering to God → Finding hope in Christ → Helping others

This Episode Explores

• Joe Wankelman's journey from a struggling student to an Army Apache pilot

• How military service and combat shaped his identity

• The trauma and struggles that followed his military career

• Losing his identity when he could no longer fly the Apache

• Joe Wankelman's battle with depression, self-harm and suicidal thoughts

• How Scripture, mentors and Christian community changed his perspective

• Why Joe Wankelman says his true identity is "hope in Christ"

• His mission to help other men overcome their struggles

Questions Answered

• Who is Joe Wankelman?

• How did Joe Wankelman become an Apache pilot?

• What happened to Joe Wankelman after his military career?

• How did losing his identity affect him?

• How did Joe Wankelman find Jesus?

• What role did Scripture play in his healing?

• What does Joe Wankelman mean by "hope in Christ"?

• How can men find a supportive community?

Podcast Transcript: Joe Wankelman on War, Trauma, Identity, Redemption & Finding Hope in Christ

Amazing Greats with Ric Hansen

Guest: Joe Wankelman — U.S. Army Apache Helicopter Pilot, Combat Veteran and Christian

From Struggling Student to Apache Pilot

Ric Hansen:Hi there, this is Ric Hansen on Amazing Greats.

Today, Joe Wankelman has an amazing true story of triumph over challenges. On today's episode, he shares his highs and his lows and the hard work it took to get to where he is today.

You'll get to know and love this guy as he gets vulnerable in telling his journey to joy through his recent faith in Jesus.

So I just got your story, and I'm just blown away by the whole thing.

How does a kid who was challenged with a parental split early on in his life, who didn't read until he was in seventh grade, barely made it out of high school and was fearful of heights, become an Army Apache helicopter pilot flying one of the most sophisticated aircraft in the world?

And you did four tours in Afghanistan and Iraq, all as part of the war against terror, and quite frankly became an American hero serving our country.

This is an Amazing Greats story that truly needs to be told.

Joe Wankelman, welcome. How are you today?

Joe Wankelman:I am so blessed to be here. I'm excited to tell my story, and I'm just so grateful for this opportunity. Thank you so much.

The Apache Helicopter

Ric Hansen:That is cool.

Let's first start out by finding out what an Apache helicopter is. It's an amazing piece of equipment, so kind of explain the details of this incredible machine.

Joe Wankelman:When I think of human innovation, I don't think of anything greater.

I compare that with the F-35 and the rockets we're sending into space, because you have this helicopter that is defying physics with a million different moving parts that are able to go into some of the more hostile situations and help bring our men and women on the ground home.

It's one of those helicopters that's designed for a specific duty.

It carries a 30-millimeter cannon underneath it that is attached to my right eye. So wherever I'm looking, I'm able to provide effective fires.

We're also designed for the tank battle, which we were originally designed for against the Russian horde. So we have missiles and rockets.

This helicopter is more maneuverable and more equipped for today's battlefield than any other helicopter there is.

I couldn't imagine flying the Ferrari of aviation, is what I think.

It truly is a feat, what it's able to do.

And if you really look at the impact it had on the war on terror, I don't think there are too many people who can think of something that had more of an impact than the Apache.

Ric Hansen:It's also a fact that you develop a relationship with this machine, right? I mean, you're one and the same practically.

Joe Wankelman:You literally plug in.

It responds to you. It's wild.

When you connect to the Apache, you become one. It feels you.

There are times when you're thinking, "I need to turn left," and it starts to turn left.

It's just so dynamic in its performance and its capabilities.

And it has to be.

We're operating anywhere from 20 feet off the ground to typically around 3,000 feet as our ceiling, and everywhere in between.

As I always say when I'm explaining it, there is no greater rush than flying 25 or 50 feet off the ground into a fight at about 200 miles per hour.

You've got five radios going on in your head from different people.

You know which radio is squawking because of the volume, but you're talking to the ground guys and hearing where they're at. You're developing the situation.

Then you're like, "Okay, it's time for me to take over the fight. You guys just buckle up, hunker down. I know where you're at. I've got it from here."

Then we're able to take the mission on and perform some of the most wild experiences of my life.

When the Apache Became His Identity

Ric Hansen:In many ways, at that point in your life, that was who you were. That was your identity, correct?

Joe Wankelman:Yeah.

To be able to get into that helicopter takes commitment. It takes discipline.

If you were to meet me then, I would tell you I was an Apache pilot. That would be the first thing out of my mouth.

Before I say my name, before I talk about the things I've done, the first thing was, "I'm an Apache pilot."

It was because of the dedication, the commitment, the hard work and the constant effort.

The helicopter is constantly getting upgraded. There are changes happening all the time, and you have to stay ahead of it in so many different ways.

It's hard to fully capture the wild ride that helicopter is.

The Quotes That Shaped His Life

Ric Hansen:You were in the military for 17 years, but then things came to a sudden stop due to a health issue. We're going to get to that in just a minute.

But you've quoted a few times in my Amazing Greats research Michelangelo.

Quote Michelangelo for us one more time here on Amazing Greats.

Joe Wankelman:I live by three quotes—well, really four now—but three of them got me to that point.

I had to morph it so I could personalize it for myself.

As I always say, Michelangelo said, "The human tragedy is not those who shoot for the stars and fall short, but those who shoot for the top of a hill and achieve it."

Don't limit yourself.

Believe you can accomplish anything you put your mind to.

And that's my story, for sure.

Growing Up in Colorado

Ric Hansen:Let's go back to that story and see where this all came from, because it's so intriguing and it really makes this truly an amazing story.

Let's start out with you as a young guy.

You were born in Colorado. Actually, you were born in your house in Colorado.

Joe Wankelman:I was.

I was born to a starving-artist family, and they didn't do things quite the traditional way.

I was literally born in the house I grew up in.

Ric Hansen:Did you have a midwife or anybody helping out?

Joe Wankelman:Yep. My mom had a midwife.

The wild thing is, there was no running water in the house.

Ric Hansen:My goodness.

And so your parents are kind of like—I don't know if this is fair to say—but from what I could get, they're kind of like hippies. They're unplugged, both really creative types, living in a really small little town.

Is that fair to say?

Joe Wankelman:Yeah.

Definitely my dad. I think my mom at that time was just trying to figure out who she was.

They both met at the Minneapolis College of Art and Design, and from there decided to explore what a relationship would be like.

They had some ups and downs, but they really took things in that artistic way—in that freedom-of-expression way—trying to capture their voice and, more importantly, capture their pain that they didn't fully know about through different forms of art.

My dad was a photographer. My mom was an oil painter.

Ric Hansen:Any brothers or sisters?

Joe Wankelman:Not until a lot later.

My brother is ten years younger than me. This is after my parents split.

Then I have two sisters who are 15 and 18 years younger than me.

So I'm an only child, but technically I'm not.

Ric Hansen:The split happened when you were just pretty young, right?

Joe Wankelman:Yeah. Three years old is when everything kind of fell apart.

It really goes into my first memory of trauma and the struggles.

Looking back, that split, when I was three, turning four, is one of the most impactful events of my life and really defined the way that I would look at the world for 35-plus years.

His First Introduction to Faith

Ric Hansen:Was there any semblance of religion back in those days that you remember, or even as you were going into adolescence?

Joe Wankelman:No, not at that point.

It wasn't until after the split that my grandmother kind of started taking care of me because my dad had some real challenges.

He grew up with a father who was a World War II pilot. His dad had undiagnosed PTSD, and it was really challenging for him.

He took a lot of that trauma personally and developed what I call maladaptive coping skills—bad habits, destructive ways, however you want to describe them—to numb the pain.

He was really focused on himself, so it was unstable, dealing with some of the challenges that he was going through.

My grandma took me for a while.

My mom at that point kind of disappeared. I mean, I know she was in my life, but I don't have a lot of memories of it.

It wasn't until about nine, I think, when my mom finally started going to church.

She grew up in a Catholic household back in Iowa.

At nine, she started trying to change some of the destructive, maladaptive coping skills she had.

That was my first introduction to Christ and to faith.

But at nine years old, I had already gone through a lot and I didn't really understand a lot.

Struggling in School

Ric Hansen:You were not a straight-A student at that point.

Joe Wankelman:No.

It was very evident early on that there was something wrong.

First of all, socially, I was very socially awkward.

Bullying became a real problem early on. The first times I remember it are in preschool and kindergarten, which is different and very defining.

I just kind of shut down.

My head started to really bounce around really fast. People would call it ADHD today.

For me, my brain was just trying to survive.

Education wasn't exactly the priority.

My dad didn't really enforce it.

I struggled to read. I struggled to understand my place in the world.

I struggled. Honestly, I just struggled.

I had been introduced to Christ, but I was having some challenges there because I didn't understand it.

I remember thinking, "If God's perfect, then why did you screw up with me?"

Because I took everything personally.

Anything that went wrong, it was my fault.

There are so many incidents that I remember thinking, "I'm inadequate. I'm inferior. I'm weak."

Weak was a big one.

I thought I was so weak.

I was just really angry at myself for not being normal.

Barely Graduating and Choosing the Military

Ric Hansen:School—you did graduate, barely. You got a 1.9 GPA.

Joe Wankelman:1.9.

So there you go. I got out of there.

Ric Hansen:But that brought some decisions, some serious decisions on your part. Life decisions that turned out to be fantastic.

What was next?

Joe Wankelman:I remember going on a hike with my dad during my sophomore year.

We were up in Montana, and we went about 100 miles into the Bob Marshall Wilderness.

He told me my second quote:

"Sometimes in life you just have to put one foot in front of the other. You might not know where you're going, but you're going to get somewhere. Don't quit."

This was challenging because in high school there were times I didn't want to live.

There were times I was really struggling with the enormity of the situation I was facing and feeling like such a failure.

From there, I always thought my failure and my inability to succeed in life were because of my lack of discipline—because of whatever flaw it was at that moment.

Discipline came up the most.

I decided to join the military.

It was one of those things where I had to get out of the house. I had to leave the environment I was in, and I wanted to be all I could be.

So on June 13, 2000, a week after I graduated high school, I was on a bus headed to Fort Sill, Oklahoma.

Discovering Success in the Army

Ric Hansen:Oh my gosh. Wow.

So there was one step forward.

Joe Wankelman:Yeah. That was a big step.

That was the start of kind of excelling.

In the military, the one thing that I was gifted with—I don't know exactly where it came from—is that I never quit.

Even if I just fell right on my face, I'd always get back up and try again.

I would try and I would try.

I was always told, "He's just got an incredible heart."

Oftentimes I was called stupid.

It's amazing how that word "stupid" really stuck with me for a long time.

Ric Hansen:I can get that.

Joe Wankelman:Yeah. I labeled myself with that.

But I just didn't want to be.

So I tried and I tried and I tried.

That's where I started to succeed in the Army.

I joined as a forward observer, a 13F, with an airborne option.

Airborne school was my first real opportunity to face my fear.

I almost quit.

I remember getting ready for the 200-foot tower.

I've got my parachute on. They're going to pull you up to 200 feet, and then you kind of float down.

I started backing up.

And I started backing up.

I remember the group of guys around me surrounding me, telling me, "You can do it. You can do it. Just take that step. You've got what it takes."

It really was the first moment where I saw the power of team.

If I didn't have them, I wouldn't have been a paratrooper.

Their encouragement got me on the tower.

Then I went up, and wild enough, I thought that was scarier than actually jumping out of the plane.

But it just started to roll.

I started to get Soldier of the Month, Soldier of the Quarter.

I started realizing there are things the military really likes, and there are things that I should avoid.

I started to really have a successful career and was promoted to E-6 in four years.

The Drive to Prove Himself

Ric Hansen:And in your own mind, losing all of that baggage of being stupid and being slow and all of those things that you kind of labeled yourself—those were being shed because now you were seeing successes, right?

Joe Wankelman:No, actually it wasn't.

I kept telling myself that, and because of that I kept pushing myself even harder.

It was like the driving force.

I was so terrified of being stupid that I would take the next step.

As soon as I would take the next step, it wasn't good enough.

So I had to do something more.

It kept pushing that desire to be significant, desire to be seen.

Ultimately, that's what it was.

I wanted to be seen for who I was rather than being labeled as what a lot of people were calling me.

The label stuck, and I would continue to call myself that.

Which drove me to the success I achieved.

Becoming an Apache Pilot

Ric Hansen:So where did the Apache option come into play?

Joe Wankelman:In 2006, I was a platoon sergeant in Hawaii.

It was after my first deployment to Iraq. My first deployment was on the ground.

I basically gave myself the option: aviation or Special Forces.

I needed to do something next.

I needed that next rush because being an infantry platoon sergeant wasn't comfortable.

I wasn't seeing the recognition I wanted. I still felt invisible.

So I applied for the one thing I didn't think I was going to get.

I studied for the tests. I went through the process. It wasn't like I just applied and suddenly, "Wow, here I am."

It was a lot of due diligence, hard work, studying and preparation.

I put in my packet for aviation and then basically dismissed it because I didn't think I was going to get selected.

So I started working on my Special Forces packet because I felt I had a higher probability of getting into that.

The wild thing was that I scored really well on my tests and was selected the first round.

Looking back, that's kind of where God was really guiding me.

God wasn't really a part of my life at this point.

I knew He was there, but I always put Him in my box.

I wanted God on my terms, not on His terms.

God was convenient, basically.

I lived a very ungodly life, and I would use that as an excuse.

"If He didn't want me to be like that, then I wouldn't have been programmed that way."

I had a lot of those excuses, unfortunately.

Marriage and Family

Ric Hansen:At this point, you're still single though?

Joe Wankelman:No, I am married.

Actually, I got married when I was 21.

Because of the challenges in high school, at that point in time I thought love was physical.

I got into a physical relationship with a girl. I was 20, she was 18, and we got married on a whim.

A couple months later, she was pregnant with my first child, Colin.

That was a wild ride as well.

Being 21 with a child when I'm still a kid and still struggling, and having no clue who I am, is a very challenging experience.

Flight School and the Cost of Success

Ric Hansen:So you got admitted into flight school, and the challenge to get to that point of being an Apache helicopter pilot was certainly as big a challenge as most of the challenges you'd already overcome, right? Or more?

Joe Wankelman:It's slightly different, but at the same time, when you really look at it, flight school isn't easy.

It was a two-year process that required everything.

And then, in my off time, I had to be a husband and a father.

It creates a lot of challenges because I was so afraid to fail that I gave everything to being a pilot and really robbed my family of me.

You're waking up early, going to PT, doing physical exercises at 6:30.

Then you're typically in class until 12 or 1 o'clock.

Then you're moving to the flight line and flying until 7 or 8 o'clock.

Then you're coming home and studying because you have some test at some point in the next week on aerodynamics, weather, gunnery operations—who knows what it is, but there's always some test.

There's also 5-and-9, something you have to memorize verbatim.

These are massive chapters with 100-plus steps, and you have to know them like they're a part of you because that's where your emergency procedures and aircraft limitations are.

To do that required 18-hour days of studying.

The rest was sleep.

And family just really, unfortunately, didn't fit in that.

Marriage, Divorce and Coping

Ric Hansen:The marriage wound down somewhere along the line in that process.

Joe Wankelman:We tried to keep working it out.

We kept trying to find quick fixes and patches without actually having to address ourselves.

A lot of my coping mechanisms—drinking, my temper, spending money, different ways that I tried to change the chemicals in my brain without actually having to address me—started to impact things.

Flight school was definitely a major catalyst for the ultimate split, but the split wouldn't happen until about five years after flight school.

Ric Hansen:And did you have other kids along the way too?

Joe Wankelman:Yeah.

As of today, we're really starting to overcome a lot of the challenges.

My oldest is 21, and we're starting a conversation now, really getting to know who he is.

It's wild because I feel like I'm talking to myself when I was 21.

He has a lot of the same tapes. He struggles in a lot of the same ways.

He's really trying to figure out who he is right now.

It's an interesting challenge.

There was a time when they were very angry at me.

They didn't understand a lot of the circumstances.

I didn't understand a lot of the circumstances.

I was married for 10 years, but in the military I was gone six and a half years of that marriage.

That's because of the operational tempo of combat and training.

And when I was home, I was either trying to numb myself from everything I'd gone through, studying for the next exam, or dealing with the constant revolving demands of being a pilot.

You can be back home and still feel deployed.

Kidney Failure Ends His Flying Career

Ric Hansen:Success in your military career was phenomenal.

Unfortunately, you were required to step away in retirement early because of a health issue, right?

Joe Wankelman:Yep.

I had a couple of health issues.

One that really bit me was kidney failure after my fourth deployment—my first deployment to Afghanistan in 2014.

I got back in 2015.

Some things happened in Afghanistan that really set me back.

I started to break mentally with the stress due to some situations that occurred in combat.

As I said, I like to numb myself through alcohol as kind of the Army's way of coping.

The stress of the mission was getting to me.

Finally, kidney failure happened in August 2015.

As they show often in the videos, you have to be in pristine shape. Your body has to be predictable for the military to allow you to fly a $45 million helicopter.

The Fight for His Life

Ric Hansen:What were the signs of kidney failure? Was there a cure or a fix for that?

Joe Wankelman:Me being stubborn, I knew something was wrong, but it wasn't until some friends came over and I was just ash and blue that they said, "We're going to the emergency room. Something's not right here."

I'm just like, "No, I'll sleep it off."

I'm very blessed that I had the friends that I did.

We went to the hospital.

I thought I was just going to be there for a few moments.

Next thing I know, I'm getting admitted.

They're pumping me with IV fluids, and they're basically saying, "Get your affairs in order because we don't know what's going on, but your kidneys aren't working."

There were a couple of days there where it was pretty intense.

It's also when my commander and first sergeant came.

They knew I was struggling with what happened in Afghanistan, but then they said, "Bud, I don't think the Army's going to allow you to fly the Apache anymore."

It was probably one of the hardest things I ever heard.

Ric Hansen:What was the kidney fix? Are you still having kidney issues today?

Joe Wankelman:Liver and kidney issues—I still am very high on the charts.

It's like I'm always right there on, "Should we be concerned or not?"

We're just continuing to monitor it.

In the hospital, it was through IVs.

I was getting ready to have the process where they filter your blood.

But the day I was about to go through that, there was just a little improvement.

The doctor said, "Okay, we're going to pause."

Each day they pushed the procedure back one more day.

Luckily, I improved enough that they were able to release me without having to go through that process.

Losing His Identity

Ric Hansen:The tragedy of all of that, of course, was that this thing you'd worked so hard for and became so attached to in terms of identity was gone.

It was all over with.

That had to be a horrible thing on top of it all.

Joe Wankelman:It was status for me.

It's where I felt seen. It's where I felt like I mattered.

It was where I felt like I belonged.

People recognized me.

It was the first time I actually felt significant.

Losing your identity like that almost broke me.

I'd have to go much darker before I'd be able to rebound and start to really see the gifts.

At that time, it was probably one of the most painful things I've ever experienced.

The Darkest Moment

Ric Hansen:Including doing physical harm to yourself. You were cutting. You attempted suicide at one point.

Walk us through that dark moment.

I don't want to spend a lot of time there, but I think it's your story and it's an important part of that story.

Joe Wankelman:It is. It absolutely is an important part.

When I lost my identity, I went to the doctors and said, "There's something wrong with me. Fix me."

They put me on Paxil, which is a pharmaceutical medication.

It was great at first because I felt so numb.

But about six or eight months into that, I started to feel things again.

I started to get overwhelmed. I started to feel out of control.

So they put me on Seroquel and quetiapine, and we started chasing these symptoms.

At one point I was on 11 different prescription medications.

During that time, when I was on so much, I didn't feel anything.

That's where the cutting really came in.

I had cocooned myself.

I isolated myself.

I had all the markers.

Finally, one day at my lowest, literally days before I was supposed to get out, I completely broke.

I decided I didn't want to go on.

I remember running into the woods behind my house, screaming at God, "Let me kill myself."

It was a very dark moment.

But the wild thing is the process and journey I would go through after that.

I woke up and thought, "How did I get here? This isn't what I dreamed of. Why isn't my brain working? What is going on?"

I had to really reverse-engineer it.

How did I gain the hatred for myself that I have?

Where did I lose myself in this process?

Who am I?

Why am I here?

Asking those really challenging questions.

It wasn't an overnight discovery.

It was basically a clawing—not quitting.

I'm obviously meant to be here for a reason because if I wasn't, the suicide would have worked.

So why am I here?

The Long Road to Healing

Ric Hansen:And how did you get out of it? Was therapy involved?

Joe Wankelman:Tons of therapy.

I went through ACT, DBT, CBT, prolonged exposure, EMDR, inpatient, outpatient, IOP and talk therapy.

I went through so much.

It had an impact, but I still struggled.

It seemed like all those bad habits kept showing up.

All those negative tapes kept playing.

I didn't understand it until later, but those negative tapes that I created started with my first memory around my parents' divorce.

That's really where I developed the bad habit of personalizing pain and experiences as, "I'm the failure. It's my fault."

I developed bad habits of drinking, eating fast food, eating sugar and creating an unhealthy ecosystem.

So I started working out.

I looked at stimulation, oxygen and nutrition.

I started looking at what I was eating and tried to clean out the sugar and get a good microbiome going.

I started to see improvements.

It wasn't big steps.

It was little improvements here and little improvements there.

But it wasn't until I met George Tols that I experienced the biggest step in my healing.

This was around 2018. My attempt had been in 2016.

I'm trying to figure all this stuff out.

God was really showing me, "Okay, how does the brain work? How do neurons connect? What is myelin around the neurons? How are bad habits formed? What are the tapes playing in your head?"

Then I met George.

Joseph's Story and a New Perspective

Joe Wankelman:This is where the biggest step in my healing occurred.

It was my first time at his event, and we were talking about Joseph and his story.

I'm already familiar with the name Joseph, so I'm paying attention to that.

But it was when he got to Genesis 50 and Joseph stated to his brothers, "You intended to harm me, but God had a different plan," that something clicked.

The world intended to harm me.

All this stuff I went through—all the darkness, the challenges in combat, my childhood, the bullying, my first memory of domestic violence and the divorce.

And it all happened for a reason.

Wait a second.

What is God teaching me here?

That's where it just perplexed me.

What is God showing me?

I started getting into Scripture.

I started talking to George a lot more.

Then I was reading Romans, and I got to Romans 5:3.

It gives the equation of struggle leading to perseverance, perseverance leading to character, character leading to hope, and hope in the Lord not going void.

And instantly I was like, "Oh my gosh."

How do you persevere?

You have to learn something.

At that same time, my third quote came into my life.

Einstein said, "You can't solve a problem from the perspective you created it in."

That was when I thought, "Where did I get my perspective?"

Where did the perspective that I'm trying to solve these problems with over and over, hoping for different results but getting the same results, come from?

That led me into my childhood and the adverse childhood experiences I went through.

It had me examine the times that I felt abandoned, rejected, betrayed and the injustice of different situations that really hurt me.

Then the shame that I would continually play in my head because I didn't see myself as worthy.

I didn't see myself as adequate.

I didn't see myself as God designed me to be.

And Scripture just started to open up to me.

Every day, First Thessalonians: "In all things give thanks, for God designed them for you in Christ Jesus."

George gave me that one.

Then you have the story of Paul—Saul—who was so programmed and rooted in his way, convinced that he knew the truth until he was knocked off the donkey.

That's when he gained a new perspective.

And that's when things just started to change in the most radical ways.

The Mentors God Put in His Life

Ric Hansen:There's another guy who was spiritually kind of an assist as well—Jimmy Brooks. I heard you talk with him earlier on.

Joe Wankelman:Jimmy Brooks was actually my mentor as an Apache pilot.

He always represented God.

When I was starting to go through my divorce, he told me to read the Book of James.

I didn't really understand it and didn't fully get it, but Jimmy was always there.

What I really appreciate about Jimmy is that he taught me mentorship.

One of the things I've come to realize recently is that the way you define your words defines your reality.

Growing up in the military, mentorship was really important because that's the person who's teaching you how to fly.

You're coming in on an approach and you completely mess it up.

Then you sit there and talk about that approach.

"Change this. Apply a little bit over here."

There are these fine-tuning maneuvers.

Next thing you know, your landing is within standard.

When I got into the civilian world, mentorship was very different.

It was basically a once-a-quarter or once-every-six-months conversation.

You catch up, they give a few suggestions and then you're off on your own again.

I was like, "What happened to the mentorship in the military? I want that type of mentorship."

With Jimmy, because it was military, we could always see Christ in him, but it was more through his actions.

During my third deployment, when the divorce was really becoming a reality, he told me, "Go to the Book of James."

That's when I started to read Scripture and actually start to look at, "Okay, who is God?"

But at the same time, I was keeping Him in my box.

It wasn't until George came into my life that I really said, "Okay, I surrender. Change me. I don't want to be here anymore. God, if You're real, change me."

Discovering His True Identity

Ric Hansen:And He changed you.

You are a different man today.

Joe Wankelman:One hundred percent.

I look at the Apache, and it was truly, in terms of the worldly experience, an amazing adventure.

It was an amazing feat.

Even how I was able to do what I was able to do.

But my greatest accomplishment is that I love myself.

I love who God made me to be.

I love Jesus.

I love Him with everything I am because I've been given one of life's greatest gifts.

I've won life's lottery.

I'm able to persevere.

I'm able to overcome.

And now I'm able to help people.

When a person can overcome something, the Holy Spirit can use them to shine a light into darkness because there's somebody else experiencing that pain.

There's somebody else playing those tapes of shame.

There's somebody else who's struggling.

My community—the people I'm around—are just unbelievable.

I'm seeing Navy SEALs who had a very similar childhood becoming beacons of hope in Christ.

And that's really it.

It was about a year ago that I finally figured out what my identity is.

It's hope in Christ.

That is who I am.

Was There a Jesus Moment?

Ric Hansen:Was there a Jesus moment, or was it kind of an evolution through George and through your earlier Scripture readings and all of that?

Or was there a moment somewhere?

Some people say, "Oh, yeah, there was this one time," and others not so much.

Where was that with you?

Joe Wankelman:It was a process.

My best friend crashed and was killed on April 6, 2018.

About the same time, I'm just starting to meet with George.

Then there was this other group.

Right before that happened, I went to get some paperwork filled out over at something called the Heroes Cafe.

An individual sat next to me, and I didn't want to talk to him.

I didn't want anything to do with him.

I don't know why he was there.

I remember him sitting next to me and me being uncomfortable.

We had our quick conversation. He was trying to ask me questions, and I was stonewalling him.

My friend then passed, and next thing I know, I have tickets to go bury him in Kentucky.

I come back and meet this individual.

His name is Pat Crosby.

He had been through a lot when it comes to some of the more challenging events in life.

He had faced them and had to overcome them as well.

Through that friendship and mentorship, we created a group of about 12 guys where we were all just struggling.

I call it the first perseverance unit.

We were struggling, but we helped each other out.

We would talk about our struggles, eat, go around the circle and talk about our struggles.

Then we'd go to Scripture and just start reading.

We'd constantly ask, "How do we overcome this?"

If I were to say a Jesus moment, it was those guys in that room every Saturday.

We all knew that we were broken, struggling, hurt and angry.

We had really destructive mechanisms.

But that group of guys—that was the moment.

Today, each of us is living our dreams and helping people in Kansas, Utah, Georgia, Alabama and elsewhere.

We're creating these groups to spread what the Holy Spirit taught us.

Creating Safe Spaces for Men

Ric Hansen:Is this called the Holy Smokes group?

Joe Wankelman:No. The Holy Smokes group is another group that I'm a part of over in Issaquah.

This one doesn't really have a name.

It's wild.

We're working with meth addicts and people who were looking at harming a lot of other people.

We've worked with people who are struggling with alcohol, drug addiction and all sorts of things.

It's really open to anybody who's struggling and wants to change.

The changes we're seeing are incredible.

The steps that are happening are incredible because you don't have to solve the problems from the perspective you created when you were that three-year-old, five-year-old or seven-year-old self anymore.

Ric Hansen:Holy Smokes is kind of like that?

Joe Wankelman:It's a group of guys who get together on Tuesdays over in Issaquah at the Treehouse.

We're there for each other.

It's a support group.

It's a place where you can take the mask off and be you and be loved for who you are.

You can take the conversations as deep or as shallow as you want.

How Men Can Build Community

Ric Hansen:If there are men out there who say, "I'd like to meet with other men and talk about my life," any suggestions on how someone could go about making that happen?

Joe Wankelman:The first thing is that you have to have self-awareness.

You have to say, "Okay."

One thing I didn't have as an Apache pilot was self-awareness.

I didn't see how my actions were hurting the people I loved the most.

I would justify them because I could rationalize the sequence of events that caused me to lose my temper.

But how was I really representing 1 Corinthians 13—patience, kindness and being slow to anger—when I'm blowing my top because my son didn't meet my standard?

The first thing is awareness.

You can gain that awareness by looking at how people around you are responding to you.

If you can't see it in yourself, how does it impact the people around you?

What does it make them feel about themselves?

Awareness is key.

Then you have to acknowledge it.

"There's something wrong. I can do better here. I want to improve in this."

From there, go into prayer.

"God, change me. I don't want to struggle with this anymore. Lord, I need You in this."

Go to Scripture.

And then comes the challenging part: how do you get a group of guys to really take down the defenses?

Society has created us so that we have to have our armor on all the time.

There can't be any kinks in that armor.

But this is one where, if you want a group, reach out to me.

I'll give you my email and information that you can post, and we can start to figure out how to create these groups.

The reality is that we need more groups where we can be raw, where we're able to be honest and say, "I'm hurting. This is hard. I struggle here. I'm scared."

Once you're able to really do that, it's amazing how God just starts to work.

Hope in Christ

Ric Hansen:It is so great to see it.

We pretty much run out of time.

In fact, you—I probably kept you over what I promised.

But you're good.

This has been just—I can't even tell you how fascinating, enlightening and inspiring this conversation has been.

You are just a man filled with wisdom.

I appreciate the time you've spent with us and am excited that we're going to be able to share this with our podcast audience.

Joe Wankelman:I really appreciate it.

My last bit is this:

If you can overcome the struggle, then the struggle stops defining who you are.

I'm here for that.

Whoever needs it, whoever needs to talk, I'm here.

That's my mission on this earth.

And I'm grateful for it.

So thank you for this opportunity.

Ric Hansen:Wow.

Thanks to Joe Wankelman for his amazing, heartfelt story—from the darkest of dark times to a full realization of God's love and redemption.

I appreciate your time spent here on Amazing Greats today.

Please help us grow this podcast by hitting like, sharing, subscribing, or all of the above.

God bless.