Music Guru Mark Ramsey Talks Christian Music

A fairly recent phenomenon is the powerful strength of Christian Music and Contemporary Christian Radio. It's no longer all about choirs, hymns and organ music. Music that has a solid Christian message wrapped in a contemporary music package has become instrumental in attracting new and younger Jesus followers. With it's early roots in the 70's and 80's contemporary Christian music has become a 90's and 2000's staple for churches, and radio stations. Christian Radio stations that once barely showed up in audience ratings have become a contender for top ratings in most cities around the country.

Mark Ramsey knows more about this radio format and the music they play than anyone else in America, and he shares his knowledge on this Amazing Greats episode.

For more on Mark Ramsey: https://www.markramseymedia.com/

To subscribe to Marks Faith Bright Newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/markramseymedia.com/faithbright

MARK RAMSEY AT A GLANCE

Veteran media strategist and researcher specializing in Christian radio, audience research, media growth and listener behavior.

Topics

Christian radio · Contemporary Christian music · Radio research · Audience growth · Listener behavior · Christian music · Media strategy · Fundraising · Membership · Podcasts

His Faith Journey

Media and radio career → extensive work with Christian broadcasters → deeper understanding of Christian music's role in people's lives → helping Christian media connect with audiences through music, personalities and service.

This Episode Explores

• Mark Ramsey's work with media companies and broadcasters

• The growth of contemporary Christian radio

• Why Christian radio is largely a fan-supported format

• Why Christian music is strongly values- and lyric-driven

• What makes Christian radio different from Top 40

• Why authentic personalities matter on the air

• How Christian broadcasters research music popularity

• Why songs can remain popular longer on Christian radio

• The changing meaning of musical "crossover"

• Financial challenges facing listener-supported stations

• The future of fundraising, membership and subscriptions

• How podcasts and social media are changing media economics

Questions Answered

• Who is Mark Ramsey?

• What does Mark Ramsey do for Christian radio?

• Why has contemporary Christian radio grown?

• What makes Christian radio different from other music formats?

• Why are lyrics so important in Christian music?

• What makes a Christian radio personality effective?

• How do Christian radio stations research their music?

• Why do Christian songs stay popular for longer?

• What does "crossover" mean in Christian music?

• What challenges face non-commercial Christian radio?

• How can Christian radio stations increase listener support?

• Could membership replace traditional radio fundraising?

• How are Spotify and streaming changing Christian radio?

Core Story

Mark Ramsey takes listeners behind the scenes of contemporary Christian radio, explaining why the format has continued to grow while many traditional radio formats have struggled. He describes Christian radio as a fan-supported, values-driven format in which lyrics, relationships with artists and authentic personalities matter deeply. He also explores how broadcasters research music, why Christian songs can have longer lives than typical Top 40 hits, and the financial challenges facing listener-supported stations. Looking ahead, Ramsey sees membership, subscriptions, social media and digital platforms as important parts of the future of Christian broadcasting.

Mark Ramsey: Understanding Christian Radio, Music & the Power of the Listener

Amazing Greats with Ric Hansen

Introduction

Ric Hansen:Hi, Ric Hansen here with Amazing Greats Podcast number 16.

You know, as a fallen-away Catholic, I reconnected with the church in a large part because of the music that was being played at the Sunday service.

It was performed by a full rock-style band doing songs with catchy melodies, solid musical lyrics and hooks.

But I later found out that that is what Christian radio was all about.

So this week I connected with the nation's number-one Christian music radio research consultant to take a deeper dive into Christian music and Christian radio.

So who is this Mark Ramsey?

Mark Ramsey, to a lot of our audience, probably not a familiar name. But once we start talking about it, they're going to understand how important it is that you are here with us to kind of explain the whole Christian radio and contemporary Christian music thing.

Mark is a veteran media strategist. He's a researcher, he's a trend maker, he's also on the board of the Broadcast Film Critics Association.

And then, Mark, when I pulled up your LinkedIn, I have like two pages of stuff that Mark Ramsey is. It was unbelievable.

You've got podcasts, you've got two books.

Tell me, what keeps you busy these days?

Mark Ramsey's Work

Mark Ramsey:What keeps me busy is doing good work for my clients and doing good work, I hope, for my family.

Ric Hansen:There you go.

So your clients—what kind of clients do you work with? Media companies for the most part?

Mark Ramsey:Yeah. I work with media companies, especially broadcasters, and not counting the podcast stuff.

Ric Hansen:Gotcha. And you also have a podcast on top of it all, right?

Mark Ramsey:Well, we have done a bunch of work in podcasts.

Right now we've got one about to come out with some great people in it. David Harbour's in it, Jeffrey Dean Morgan's in it, full-cast production, written and directed by Sarah Wayne Callies, who's also in it. She's from The Walking Dead.

And that comes out at the end of this month.

Mark Ramsey and Christian Radio

Ric Hansen:Very cool.

What's struck me as interesting and kind of exciting is that you also end up being, I would say—unless you can steer me in another direction—probably the most go-to guy for consulting Christian broadcast companies.

You have a newsletter called Faith Bright, and you must have lots of Christian radio clients. Is that correct as well?

Mark Ramsey:Yeah.

I think probably—I can't be sure of this because who keeps track of these things—but probably I do more research work for Christian radio broadcasters than anybody else does, both commercial and non-commercial.

But it's not really consulting per se. It's not programming consulting.

It has to do more with how to grow the audience, how to deliver to the audience, how to track the audience's needs, and how to provide service to that audience.

The Growth of Contemporary Christian Radio

Ric Hansen:Because you and I are both radio guys, and our audience is not, we're going to have to be cautious that we don't dip too deep into the vernacular of the industry.

So let's start with the history of contemporary Christian radio.

It's a fairly new phenomenon, is that right?

Mark Ramsey:Yes.

I don't know that I'm an expert on its history. I'm an expert on its recent history, I guess.

I've been doing work for those stations for probably the last 10 years or so.

And over time, the audience keeps steadily growing.

It's been really heartwarming to see, I think, as the number of stations grow.

Many of these stations are non-commercial, so they're supported by listeners, by fans.

You know, that's a thing right now, right?

Everything is supported by its fans.

Ric Hansen:Yeah.

Mark Ramsey:Whether you're talking about a Netflix subscription or a Patreon member relationship, or all the over-the-top services that are subscription-based, they're all supported by fans.

So now that's the thing.

You have a radio station that's supported by fans.

You say, "Well, there's nothing new about that."

That's as old as NPR and non-commercial radio, and that's true.

But show me the other music-driven format supported by a large number of fans that leaves out Christian or classical.

There are many more fans for Christian music than for classical.

So there isn't one.

Really, it's the only mainstream, broad-based, fan-supported music radio format that there is.

Why Christian Radio Continues to Grow

Ric Hansen:I think there was a touch into contemporary Christian music back even as early as the '70s and '80s, but it was very spotty, and there were no real radio stations that were making an impact.

You had acts like Amy Grant and Michael W. Smith, and those are kind of the origin artists of the time.

It seems like the '90s were the explosion of contemporary Christian radio, and that's kind of where you came to be a part of it, right?

Mostly the '90s and on into the 2000s.

Mark Ramsey:Probably more in the 2000s.

I think it was already a growing phenomenon back then.

K-LOVE obviously was a lot smaller than it is now. Air1 was a lot smaller, if they were even around then. I don't know.

But yeah, it's been wonderful to watch it grow.

The audience grows every year, even still, I think probably because the number of stations grows.

And every time a bell rings, an angel gets its wings, I'm told.

Ric Hansen:So why is that?

What is it about contemporary Christian radio that is growing its audience when a lot of other stations and formats are struggling?

Mark Ramsey:Well, first of all, it's fairly unique. It's fairly exclusive.

The songs don't appear on other stations or other formats to any great degree, so they kind of own their format category.

The category is big enough for one or two stations in most markets. It's not really big enough for three or more, like country is in some southern markets.

So it's able to kind of exist like a really popular island that you pass by on a cruise ship and say, "Wow, I want to stop there."

That's one reason.

I think the other reason is that unlike most popular music formats, which are kind of hit-based, song-based, hook-based, Christian music is largely values-based.

It's largely about the lyrics.

It's more about the lyrics for Christian than for any other format I can think of.

Because the lyrics—people do pay attention to the lyrics.

They sing along in all formats, but when they sing along to a Christian song, you're singing along to something that's about making you a better person, bringing you closer to God, making your life better, giving you hope, uplifting you, refreshing you, changing the way you see the world and making your world a better place.

Those are all incredibly attractive values.

And really, you're not going to get those values from a Top 40 station.

You're not going to get them from any other format, really.

You're certainly not going to get them from other non-commercial formats like public radio.

It's really unique to Christian.

Christian Music as a Prayer Set to Music

Ric Hansen:It's almost like when you're listening to a contemporary Christian radio station, it's almost like a prayer set to music, right?

Mark Ramsey:That's it.

And I think one of the reasons why the smart Christian stations don't put "Christian" above the headline—Christians not how they advertise themselves or promote themselves.

It's not what they go out to potential listeners with because for some people they have impressions about what it means to be a Christian station.

It's going to be preachy, or it's going to be old-school church music, or whatever those impressions happen to be.

Sometimes they're positive, sometimes they're not.

But there's no reason to use those impressions to promote yourself, because once people listen, they discover and appreciate what the station is.

And the term, rather than becoming an obstacle, becomes an attractant.

What Makes a Good Christian Radio Station?

Ric Hansen:What if I were to start a Christian music station right now?

As a consultant, as a researcher, as a knowledgeable person in the industry, what are the ingredients that I would want to make sure are part of my radio package?

Mark Ramsey:Well, you certainly want to play the music that people are listening to today.

Playing popular music in the category is key.

Playing the popular artists in the category is key.

You would certainly want to have personalities that connected with people on a personal level.

You'd want to have storytellers. You'd want to have real people, authentic human beings behind the microphones.

The value of any personality is the fact that there is a personality there.

I don't mean a talent. I mean an actual personality with three dimensions.

That needs to come through the speakers or the earbuds or whatever it happens to be.

And those people don't grow on trees.

So you've got to have the right talent. You've got to have people who connect.

They don't necessarily need to be around the corner.

That may or may not be helpful, but they certainly need to know how to connect.

At the end of the day, we're all human, whether we live here, there or anywhere.

So connecting is more important than being local.

Ric's Personal Connection to Christian Music

Ric Hansen:Just a quick personal background.

I was raised a Catholic.

When you went to a Catholic church, especially back in the day when I went, it was all about hymns and choirs and organs.

There was musically nothing relevant or hip or contemporary about it.

Then I drifted away from church altogether for a number of years.

I was kind of brought back into the fold as my son came back from Christian camp and wanted to be engaged in church.

Then I walked into a new church—not a Catholic church, but a contemporary church.

The thing that struck me was that on stage was a six-man band.

They had drums, electric guitars, very rhythmic, melodic music.

It was the hits with a different lyric.

For me, as a radio guy and a music guy, that was the attraction.

That's what brought me in the door.

Then all of the other things about being at a church came into play.

But the whole music thing was the attraction.

So the question is, in this day and age, what is it about Christian music that keeps the songs around longer?

Unlike Top 40 radio, the hits last a long time.

Mark Ramsey:I think part of the reason is that it's a format built on fans, not—I don't want to use jargon—not reach, not the largest number of possible listeners.

Instead, it's built on a moderate number of strong fans.

So when you have fans, you have relationships with artists and relationships with songs.

It's less about the faddish nature of the music or the song, and more about the steady diet of music you like.

So it is more in common with more adult, so-called adult-oriented stations than Top 40, which is more of a youth-oriented station.

Everything—boyfriends, girlfriends and hits—turn over quickly for that demographic.

So yes, it's less about dating and more about a relationship.

How Christian Radio Researches Its Music

Ric Hansen:Is there actual data on a week-to-week basis that says, "Oh, this one's more popular than that one?"

Is there sales data or call-out research being done?

Mark Ramsey:Christian broadcasters have access to the same tools and resources as every other format.

They know what sells.

They know what people are requesting.

They know what the Spotify charts reveal.

And they know what their own internal testing shows.

So they're able to weave all that together and come out with a compelling blend.

Do Churches Influence Christian Radio Playlists?

Ric Hansen:Is there any way to track what churches are playing on Sunday mornings?

Mark Ramsey:That's a great question.

I don't know the answer.

That would be interesting.

I'm not sure how much that would sway what Christian broadcasters play on a day-to-day basis.

When you're in a church on a Sunday morning, you're there for a specific thing on a specific day at a specific time.

That may not be what you want Monday morning or Tuesday afternoon.

These formats are created for "always on" purposes, not for the situational purpose that you find yourself in a church for.

I think that's one of the things that good Christian broadcasters realize.

"Church music," per se, gives you a sense of what people want when they're in a church.

That doesn't necessarily tell you what they want when they're driving around town.

Why Christian Songs Connect With Listeners

Ric Hansen:I've noticed in my experiences that there you were earlier talking about the fact that these are just uplifting songs.

They're not necessarily all worship songs per se, but they kind of tell a great story.

It's a great story about a relationship, a great story about something, like any song would be.

Some are more praise-and-worship oriented.

Mark Ramsey:Well, also I think some of them are just kind of statements of principle.

"This is something that happened to me, and this is how it affected me."

Or, "Here's how I cope with a problem."

They're just kind of declarations of principle.

And those are reinforcing and encouraging for people who need it.

I've heard people say they get in a car, they get behind the wheel, the traffic's bad, they get frustrated, they drive crazy, and then they flip on the Christian station.

And it calms them down.

It calms them because it reminds them there's something bigger than this traffic.

This commute is not the end-all and be-all.

This moment will pass.

There's a bigger reason to be alive than this.

Those are all important, universal messages.

And they're not messages you're going to get from most formats.

The Explosion of Christian Music Artists

Ric Hansen:What amazes me too is the huge number of artists in the contemporary Christian field now.

Back in the original days there was a handful, and now it seems like every week there's somebody popping onto the contemporary Christian charts and making big waves.

I was making a quick list, and it just goes on and on:

Chris Tomlin, Danny Gokey, TobyMac, Phil Wickham, Jeremy Camp, Lauren Daigle, King & Country, Big Daddy Weave, Matthew West and all of those.

And now some—not a lot, but some—cross over into secular radio.

Lauren Daigle is probably the most obvious example of that, but MercyMe had a song.

Do you see that happening more or not really?

Is that a trick?

Mark Ramsey:It's hard to say because what crosses over has to do with lots of variables that are tough to predict.

You can't predict the hits, let alone predict what's going to cross over into other formats.

I think increasingly nowadays it doesn't really matter what crosses over.

Now we have access to Spotify, where every individual who has an account can create their own custom playlist with their own list of songs, some of which may be listened to by a handful of people in the world.

So what does it mean to cross over in a world where people can pick their own songs independent of genre?

What does that even mean?

It's almost kind of an academic problem that's now remote from the average listener's field of view because they don't have to worry about it anymore.

They have Spotify, Pandora, SiriusXM and their local radio station.

Challenges Facing Christian Radio

Ric Hansen:Maybe what I should do, because I used the term "crossover" first, is explain that I mean a song going from the Christian format only and jumping over to an adult contemporary station, a Top 40 station or a country station.

What are some of the unique challenges going forward for contemporary Christian radio stations to keep growing that audience?

Mark Ramsey:Many of them are non-commercial.

And when you're non-commercial, you have built-in challenges.

When you're supported by listeners—supported by donors in particular—that's a small percentage of your audience contributing a vast percentage of your revenue.

That's a tough equation because you have to count on that giving sustaining and growing.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

It depends on the way you ask, how you ask, what you offer, all that stuff.

So I think one of the challenges is going to be financial support in the future.

That said, in many cases, I'd rather be a non-commercial, listener-supported station than an advertising-supported station, because that pool of money is even more volatile and likely to erode than the pool associated with people who give to something they care about.

The Future of Fundraising

Ric Hansen:What about the technique of fundraising?

Based on research or clients that you know and work with, are there better ways to generate revenue than others?

Are there any keys to that?

Mark Ramsey:There's no magic to it, certainly.

Typically these stations are generating money in fairly traditional ways.

They do "charathons" or fund drives where people call in and make their pledges.

That's as traditional as it gets.

They now have the ability to reach people by text, email, snail mail, and social media.

There are mechanisms through social media where you can support a station.

There are mechanisms through social media that very few stations use, by the way, that allow you to establish a fund—your own mini-fund drive—for the station that you care about.

Through your own circle of friends, you can encourage them to give on your behalf to that radio station.

That's a big development made possible by social media.

It's crowdfunding or peer-to-peer fundraising, however you want to term it.

So there is new development out there.

But fundamentally, it's only a question of how you ask, what the ask is, what you're giving in return, and what you expect.

I also think that there's a move away from purely "donation" toward what I like to call membership.

When you consider membership and subscription, they're very similar, right?

When you give, you don't give a year's worth of money typically to Netflix. You give it once a month because every month they come back again.

Every month you're evaluating the equation.

You do the same with your cable provider if you have cable.

And I think that subscription process is an opportunity for Christian stations.

If I'm going to subscribe, I could give every month or I could give a one-time gift.

But that's different from subscribing, because when you subscribe, you get something in return.

Something that others who don't subscribe don't get.

That's the key thing.

Donors are supporting a station because they feel it's the right thing to do.

They feel in their heart they want to.

They're doing it in spite of the fact that 96% of the audience doesn't do it.

That's an important and appreciated motivation.

But it's not the only way to support the brand.

I submit that a lot of the people who are not donating—the so-called free riders—would be happy to give money to their favorite radio station if they were getting something in return that others weren't getting.

That's how it works for Patreon.

That's how it works for Kickstarter.

That's how it works for Netflix.

Will Christian Radio Embrace Membership?

Ric Hansen:Are stations doing that now?

I mean, are the big networks leaning that way?

Mark Ramsey:Not yet in a big way.

I'm not seeing that yet in a big way.

But I think it's one of the things that's going to happen in the near future because it's just everywhere.

You can't not see it.

There are podcasts that are producing six figures of revenue per year doing exactly that.

How can you look the other way at that?

Closing

Ric Hansen:This is very enlightening, and I really appreciate your taking the time out.

I know you're a busy guy and you're remodeling your home, and you've moved to Portland, up to the Great Pacific Northwest, which is exciting.

You know, we were just talking today over coffee about how what a wonderful place we live because we don't have a drought and we don't have windstorms and we don't have hurricanes.

It's just a wonderful place to be.

So welcome to the Northwest.

Thank you for your time today.

This is very enlightening. I know our audience will love it.

And God bless you.

Thanks.

Mark Ramsey:Thank you. God bless you. I appreciate it.

Ric Hansen:Well, now, eight months into the Amazing Greats Podcast project, I want to take a moment to thank all of our wonderful guests so far, our volunteer production guru and editor, Klem Daniels, our hosts Joe Michaels, Greg Cook, Larry Lomax and others, and Klem too, for their support and talents.

And a big thank you to my friend and my mentor, George Tolls.

Until next time, God bless.